ME and Mr Windle

This is part of an ongoing exchange between me and a good friend of mine who loves discussion and has been a real encouragement to me throughout this whole thing. I'm sure he doesn't mind me sharing. This is just an excerpt I found. There's plenty more. This is about a month old.

First email is further down, the reply comes first.

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Hi John,

Upon re-reading the below, it strikes me as quite heavy and even a bit exasperative (if that's a word). I apologize if you feel that this frustration is directed at you. I assure it is not. I have nothing but gratitude for your attempts to assist me in my questions and struggles and all that jazz. It's just that it is a very frustrating journey, especially with the whole relationships/family elements, and that sometimes comes out.

Please feel free to be critical (I need you to be actually), but use the same measure on any alternative answer/reply you might offer. I think the term is 'verbal mirror.' I endevaour to use it whenever I examine an issue. I have found it useful for keeping myself impartial (I hope so anyways, knowing that I myself am quite subjective).

Again thank you,

Thanks for getting back me to John. To be honest I've checked out most of what you've said. I didn't ask these questions and not look for reasonable answers. I'll outline some of the problems I have below:

Firstly I think music's a terrible comparison. Whilst faith might be somewhat subjective it still requires some sense of order and , music is completely subjective. But I think the conflict here arises from the word 'satisfied.'

The conclusions I'm leaning towards is that people are content(satisfied) to ignore gaping holes and problems in their faith in order to protect their way of life. This is common of almost all walks of life and faiths, and the implication is that the truth doesn't matter. Quite difficult to swallow considering Christianity in particular is always claiming it has the Truth in Jesus. I am afraid that Christian's are content to live in either a deception or a delusion for the sake of having those beliefs and an (albeit false) sense of security, and the case for this becomes more apparent the more I learn people's reasons for faith.

Another difficulty is that you are still interpreting my arguments as most christians like to see them. It's exactly what I use to do. I will try and express my opinions more thoroughly and clarify them continously so that it is easier for you to understand them for what they are, as if they cannot be established than our conversations will mostly consist of misunderstanding, something neither of us would enjoy I think :p

I'd say the examples you derive from the Bible are too subjective for me to take on board seriously. The validity may or may not be there, but at the moment, I am not Jewish, and I was born something like 4000 years later, I dont' know what actually happened and I'm not sure how much is narration and how much is fact, or how much is lost in interpretation or who the devil is. and all that, so I myself really can't use those as a comparison.

'So even if God revealed himself to you in a way which left no doubt it is not certain you'd fall to your knees and worship him. The devil doesn't :-)'

I can agree with this statement in this: If God was a complete asshole, I might not.

However you should know this: God, regardless of the particulars, remains God by sheer definition. Whether he is malevolent or not does not change this fact. He may or may not be nice. Either way I'm certainly not going to get into his way. Even if that involves falling to my knees and worshipping him.

That aside my problem isn't whether God exists or not. I think that question get's lost in definition anyway. The fact is if God cannot afford me a degree of certainty than I have no business being certain, and I cannot have anymore faith in christianity then another walk of life without being bias and forgoing reason. If this is what God is calling me to do I cannot do it, and it is completely unreaslistic for him to expect me to, especially considering the fact that he made me this way and put me in this place, and I've come to this point through seeking him.

And the thing is even if I extensively research the Gospels and find them to be true, hurrah for me, but that has huge implications about the character of God, especially considering how earnest some outside the faith seek him, and how apathetically some in it do, and that is his divider for salvation. I would follow God unswervingly but I would give up on the pretence that he loves everyone equally, or that he even loves everyone if happily selects a complete asshole for eternal paradise and then an absolutely selfless non-christian for damnation. Unless he provides to me a very good reason for doing so.

What would you have God do about it? Does he remove our free will and make a race of robots?

If you examine that argument critically you'll understand how ridiculous I find it. How about the following:

don't send people to eternal suffering for being what he made them. That's like designing turd and expecting to fly or something, and then setting it on fire forever for not.

Let me seeking for him actually find him, and everyone else for that matter, which in turn leads to: make yourself findable, without forcing us to forgo the only tools of perceiving life we were made with.

I could go on, but I won't, because God will do whatever he wants. It's just to claim that if he expects things of us without providing us the ability to do it, then we're screwed in the first place, and we can accept the facts, but have no business accepting the blame.

i would rather be a robot in eternal paradise, than anything and in eternal suffering. so if that's what it takes, I'm happy to be a robot. in fact, pretty much everyone who's been asked that question has said that. But I don't think that's what God expects or wants, him giving me ability to use a brain being an indication of that.

All in all we are actually in agreeance for the most part:

People are shit. They are just people. and each of us must offer the best we can. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do. But for me, I am all to dissatisfied with the fact that with the faith, all the facts, all the rules, all the messages, all the divine claims, all the interpretations, come through these people. If I settled for that I am offering much less to God then I am capable of.

"If you are searching for certainty I doubt you'll find it."

If this is the case, then I have no business being certain about Christianity and neither does anyone else short of some divine revelation that I am not prviy to, let alone proclaiming and preaching it to other people as anything more than a meager attempt at God and Truth

As for the Bible, I'm too uncertain about it to be certain about it's certainty about how useless certainty is.

Sorry to respond so heavily, but I just think that it's essential to clarify these things before you go on, because I dread the thought of my journey and questions being pigeon-holed.

Like previously, I will keep looking into Jesus and the Resurrection, but even whether that is true or not, the obscurity and difficulty in determining it's crediblity itself has implications as to what it means, and what God intended through it by allowing this ambiguty surrounding it to exist.

Insofar, the Christian faith as most people approach and understand it, I perceive to be insufficient in terms of sincerely, earnestly and impartially seeking God, particularly, God as Truth.

At the moment my questioning is to derive as much truth from it as I can, as to help me keep seeking God.

So all that aside, I wish to restate my gratitude towards you John. My appreciation for your earnest attempts to understand me goes deeper than you think, and for me at least, speaks mountains of your character and selflessness, even to the point of sharing your own story and struggles.

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From: John Windle [mailto:john.windle@silverbrookresearch.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 October 2009 7:10 AM
To: Thackray, Michael
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: reply at last]

Hi Michael

From my work, in the space where I use to run before work I had time to start a reply. Haven't made it to the essay bit at the end yet, later.

So my response Part 1:

I'm in a very strange spot at the moment. I decided that being a Christian because it was how I was raised, or because I was lucky to be in the right places at the right time wasn't good enough. I figured that if Christianity is true, and God truly cares, anyone who seeks him sincerely would find him.

So I tried that and now find myself moving away from it, which is really frustrating and hard, because I'm continously trying to do the right thing, and always questioning myself, and asking others, and insofar they've encouraged me in this. It's like "what the hell God? am I really meant to be going this way?" And why then, are others still in the faith and satisfied with it, and I am not?

And yet you are not surprised that other people like different music to you and probably don't feel a desire to have your musical taste conform to theirs.

Interestingly enough the resurrection and who Jesus is remains highly interesting to me.

As I said the crux of our faith, if it didn't happen we are wasting our time, if it did then we are forced to take what Jesus said about our response to God seriously regardless of how we feel about it.

And whilst I can't say I feel "closer" to God since really going deeper with my struggles the little that I do have feels a lot more real. Its a predominantly "thanks" laden relationship.

Gold.

I guess my largest problem with pretty much all of it is certainty. My experience of the church, christianity and scriptures shows it all to be hugely subjective. This includes the scriptures, our interpretation of them, our experience of christianity, the origins of the scriptures, the chirstian lifestyle. Pretty much everything actually.

I have revisited the certainty issue a lot over the years as I like certainty. I would suggest that the Bible starts in Genesis with absolute certainty about God, but it doesn't help Adam and Eve. As we progress forwards through the bible and get temporally further away from creation uncertainty increases at the Exodus given all the people had seen and experienced and were experiencing (they were still gathering manna 6 days a week) they still asked Aaron to make them a Golden Image.

So even if God revealed himself to you in a way which left no doubt it is not certain you'd fall to your knees and worship him. The devil doesn't :-)

It's all very inconsistent, even to a very fundamental level. People reduce it to "it depends what you believe about Jesus," But in turn I think that is ridiculous, considering that the information we have on Jesus comes from a billion different sources, changes with every church, and is usually obscure or bias. And that also means God let's it stay that way. I mean, if me and some other close friends, have lived it for 21 years, and then tore out our hair about it for the past 4, searching frantically and sincerely, and still are confused and unsure about it, then what the how can everyone else be?

What are you searching for precisely? But yes God does allow it to be that way but again when we look at Israel who had a much more rigid definition of God with less room for differences, though they still managed it (Sadducee's and Pharisees), it didn't help them be more faithful or keep most of them from worshiping idols.

In my experience I'm finding that they aren't, but they find excuses to behave as if they are. Or they convince themselves. Like most religions. Which is a pretty difficult concept to grapple with when most of the people you love and care for are in it. I know that people are a poor reflection of God, and that just cos they're doing crap doesn't mean God is crap, but to be honest, he's God, and he's letting them do it that way. I'm finding Chrsitianity is a poor reflection on God. Should I not let that get in the way?

What would you have God do about it? Does he remove our free will and make a race of robots?

That we all respond to him differently, to one extent or another, is not really surprising given that he made us individuals. It's similar to your family, it would appear all of you kids love your parents but I'd suggest (without any concrete examples and so it could be crap) that you each show that love in different ways to each other. Just as your parents have different ways of expressing their love towards you.

When I come to God I can only offer what I have out of who I am, if I'm inclined to offer anything. And even them my offering is likely to be much less than pure.

I think you will find that many christians will know they are doing a poor job of reflecting God. Not many are willing to say out loud, as Paul did, that others should follow their example and they would be more Godly. Most are aware of what a shit poor example we are. And if you think it is difficult looking at other who fail it is worse when you look at yourself and you know that despite what anyone else may think you have been a outright failure at living up to your own standards for honoring God, let alone Gods standards.

Doubt their personal failures are topics most people are comfortable with. I'm certainly not and wouldn't bring them up in casual conversation, but past events make me aware that they are pubic property so I wont hide them from people who want to know; they just have to ask.

Maybe God's just keeping the lights off. i don't know.

It is always possible, given Mark 4:10-12, though I'm not sure that the context applies.

either way I'll keep seeking Truth/God, the two are inseperable to me. But i cannot pretend to be certain about something so elusive. If God wanted me to be certain, than I would assume he'd give me the evidence to be. I'm doing my best, and if that's not good enough I was boned in the first place, and salvtion comes down to dumb luck: Being born int he right place, at the right time, with the right people, and then picking the right denominations, sect, or religion.

If you are searching for certainty I doubt you'll find it. Best I've managed is beyond reasonable doubt. Try focusing on the resurrection it is the crux of our faith; just ask the apostle Paul. I'm convinced that the Bible indicates certainty wouldn't help us (well me really) as much as we (I) like to think it would.

Well time to start work so Part 1 concludes here. Part 2 later.

Have a good day.

john