Me and Mr Windle - the prequel

More stuff between me and Mr Windle. This was his first and then my first reply. again, jst a snapshot of the larger discussion.


-----------------------------------

Hi John,

using my work email as well as personal because work is realllllllyyyy borrriiinnnngggg. and i can't access personal email from here, except on my phone which is hard to type on.

Firstly a huge thanks for your response. It felt completely sincere and honest as well, and I really appreciate it. Responses can be pretty convoluted in this type of thing, as the question can be quite challenging, so to have someone be straightforward about it all is quite refreshing, especially in the way you perceive how you came into the faith and knowing how your personality and character influenced that journey.

I'm in a very strange spot at the moment. I decided that being a Christian because it was how I was raised, or because I was lucky to be in the right places at the right time wasn't good enough. I figured that if Christianity is true, and God truly cares, anyone who seeks him sincerely would find him. So I tried that and now find myself moving away from it, which is really frustrating and hard, because I'm continously trying to do the right thing, and always questioning myself, and asking others, and insofar they've encouraged me in this. It's like "what the hell God? am I really meant to be going this way?" And why then, are others still in the faith and satisfied with it, and I am not?

So to hear what you had to say is really encouraging. I can't say that it will rejuvinate my faith or anything,but it definately provides some healthy insight.

Interestingly enough the resurrection and who Jesus is remains highly interesting to me. And whilst I can't say I feel "closer" to God since really going deeper with my struggles the little that I do have feels a lot more real. Its a predominantly "thanks" laden relationship.

I guess my largest problem with pretty much all of it is certainty. My experience of the church, christianity and scriptures shows it all to be hugely subjective. This includes the scriptures, our interpretation of them, our experience of christianity, the origins of the scriptures, the chirstian lifestyle. Pretty much everything actually. It's all very inconsistent, even to a very fundamental level. People reduce it to "it depends what you believe about Jesus," But in turn I think that is ridiculous, considering that the information we have on Jesus comes from a billion different sources, changes with every church, and is usually obscure or bias. And that also means God let's it stay that way. I mean, if me and some other close friends, have lived it for 21 years, and then tore out our hair about it for the past 4, searching frantically and sincerely, and still are confused and unsure about it, then what the how can everyone else be?

In my experience I'm finding that they aren't, but they find excuses to behave as if they are. Or they convince themselves. Like most religions. Which is a pretty difficult concept to grapple with when most of the people you love and care for are in it. I know that people are a poor reflection of God, and that just cos they're doing crap doesn't mean God is crap, but to be honest, he's God, and he's letting them do it that way. I'm finding Chrsitianity is a poor reflection on God. Should I not let that get in the way?

Maybe God's just keeping the lights off. i don't know.

either way I'll keep seeking Truth/God, the two are inseperable to me. But i cannot pretend to be certain about something so elusive. If God wanted me to be certain, than I would assume he'd give me the evidence to be. I'm doing my best, and if that's not good enough I was boned in the first place, and salvtion comes down to dumb luck: Being born int he right place, at the right time, with the right people, and then picking the right denominations, sect, or religion.

Bit of a rant, I apologize but I really need to express myself, because this whole thing is really really really really really really hard, and most Chrsitians haven't really been empathetic, most jsut don't know how to.

Please feel free to comment on anything and everything. Feedback and criticism is good, and keeps me in check with reality and other perspectives.

P.S

i've discarded the traiditonal concept of hell, even from a Chrsitian perspective. it might be alluded to in the Bible, but the idea of allowing people to exist solely for the sake of suffering is completely irreconiable with the idea of a God that loves his creation. I even read an essay that said there isn't huge grounds for it biblically, and it was a device used by the early church for control, that's filtered through the years. Jews didn't even believe in heaven and hell apparently. So if I were a christian I'd say that hell is something different. But God allowing eternal suffering to happen to people for just being people is ridiculously cruel on his part. I can't believe taht about God. And if he is like that..... Shit.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks again for the response John, and also reading this email, even if you didn't want to and weren't expecting it :p

---

From: michael thackray [mailto:mjthackray@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 11:34 AM
To: Thackray, Michael
Subject: FW: reply at last

> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:44:54 +1100
> From: jon@phitz.au.com
> To: Mjthackray@hotmail.com
> Subject: reply at last
>
> Hi Michael
>
> Apologies this took so long. I regret that it isn't the eloquent defense
> of my
> faith that will inspire you to turn your life upside down and become a
> missionary
> in Uganda. Instead it is a random jumble of responses that I hope at
> least honestly
> answer your questions. Feel free to ask any clarification or more
> specific questions,
> just don't expect a speedy or coherent response :-)
>
> I could play with words for a few more weeks trying to build them in to
> the above
> mentioned eloquent defense but my experience tells me that if I did that
> they would
> be no more eloquent than they are already. Well so much for my English
> expression
> dysfunction onto your questions:
>
> > Just what is Christianity to you?
> Often it is a real pain in the backside to which I am convinced there is no
> viable alternative, at least to my limited observations and more limited
> investigations, to avoid hell. It is a constant obligation to work at
> things,
> be they personal or practical, to which I will fail to reach what I believe
> is the required standard. That I know I can never achieve the standard
> asked of
> me can be somewhat depressing and makes me tend towards spritual
> nihilism, instead
> of appreciating the grace extended to me which would be a more fitting
> response.
>
> Might be relevant to say that without Christianity much of my morals and
> practices
> would probably be the same. It is unlikely I'd do drugs, or get involved
> in orgies,
> or steal those things just seem dumb. But that is only conjecture as I
> became a
> christian at about 12.
>
> > Do you believe it because it is true?
> Initially I believed because my Mum told me it was true and it was
> something that
> I really wanted to be true. I was 12 and afraid of dying and through
> death being
> separated from my parents; odd since I never missed them when I went
> away to camp
> or Dad was off at sea working. I don't understand it either :-)
>
> And despite the fact I would now class some of Mums beliefs as heretical
> I expect
> that some of the reason I persist in the faith, and possibly formed the
> view/interpretation of facts I later searched out, was due to the
> underlying
> 'infallibility' of my mother. Though I examine what I believe, and my
> motives
> for belief, I cannot 'see' that in them I acknowledge the possibility as we
> often don't 'see' our cultural, or other, conditioning.
>
> My first investigation was in Yr 11 when I did one of the major essays for
> General Studies on the validity of the scriptures. As a way of
> 'evangelising'
> the class; much 'safer' than actually talking to people face to face.
> Major source
> was the first edition of Josh McDowels book Evidence that Demands a
> Verdict, it
> was much thinner then. I did a lot more work than required for the essay and
> became, and remain, convinced the bible says what it says and has been
> transmitted
> accurately. This is a separate issue to it's truth or validity.
>
> While I have learnt a lot more about the bible since then none of it
> convinced
> me it has not accurately passed down what was written.
>
> But the key thing that holds me to 'faith' is the fact of the
> resurrection of
> Jesus. Over the years I've thought about it and haven't come up with an
> alternative
> solution that explains the 'facts' in a more believable way. As Paul
> points out
> this is the key event on which Christianity relies.
>
> It is my inability that has 'forced' me to believe when I really didn't
> want to,
> when I hated the life God had for me and when I can see no purpose at all in
> continuing to follow the teachings, as I understand them, in the
> inadequate way
> that I do.
>
> The positive experiences, the 3 times I'm convinced God has 'spoken' to
> me, the times
> I would say I've seen him act and the short period of time when I'd say
> I felt
> his presence every day as real as you all mean nothing in those times.
> Because
> it isn't hard at all to rationalise them away, and I do, or twist them
> in ways
> that make my pointless life even more frustrating.
>
> > Do you believe it because it is what you prefer?
> Much of the time I don't like it. But I'm not sure I like the concept of
> living
> in a society where Christianity hadn't had a strong influence.
>
> I'd prefer something that allowed me to think I was significant, and
> that I could
> earn salvation rather than a person in need of grace just like everyone
> else. That
> preference would be solidly based in my pride and personal insecurities.
>
> > Are you fully convinced of the gospel or do you have reservations?
> I'm convinced 'beyond reasonable doubt' that Jesus rose from the dead,
> and that
> the gospels are accurate accounts of events. One of the best books for that
> was written by a lawyer in 1800's I think where he applied the Laws of
> Evidence
> as used is US courts to the Gospel. Apart from the strange English usage
> it is
> very good. Must buy another copy, loaned it out and it never came home.
>
> I'm much less convinced that I, let alone anyone else, accurately
> interpret the
> teachings of Jesus. Without being unduly influenced by my cultural
> conditioning
> and underlying self interest.
>
> > How do you handle those reservations if they are there?
> I tend to divide the gospel into essential and non-essential beliefs. So
> far most
> of my reservations have always been in non-essential stuff. The one time
> it wasn't
> caused me much 'distress' till I was able to resolve it, found more
> facts to help
> point out my question had created unreasonable doubt.
>
> Further comment would be similar to the section on doubt I guess. I've
> only just
> realised the difference between reservation and doubt as I go to send
> this. So
> rather than explore this further I'll just send it before you give up on
> getting
> a reply.
>
> > Understandably you have a very beautiful wife and child who need
> protecting,
> > and would like to provide a optimal way of life for.
> > Does this effect how you practice your faith?
> You could re-ask this by putting life instead of faith. And being
> married and having
> a child changes everything, at least a little. I now have 2 people I
> have to consider
> above my desire to be busy with Youth Group or other church things
> though I must
> not put them above loving God; this causes a strange discontinuity for
> me as I
> have always associated loving God with being busy for him (closely
> linked with my
> desire to earn salvation or prove my worth no doubt)
>
> Biblically there are responsibilities on married men that don't exist
> for single
> men. This must change your focus a little. Paul recognises the change
> that being
> married causes in our service of God and recommends we stay single.
>
> More specific than that I cannot be as I am still trying to work out how
> I best
> work out my faith in the context of being married and being a parent. I
> know it
> means I have to set John an example of faithful living and I don't
> believe it
> means I have to brainwash him into the faith though I do need to inform
> him.
>
> God gave man free will and that applies to everyone, even John. I always
> got
> frustrated with parents of Youth who assumed there kids must be
> Christians because
> they were. Hopefully I will remember that if he chooses to not follow
> Christ. For
> me the Bills are a great example, they love Shannon and want him to
> believe but
> they don't make their love conditional on him 'conforming' and while he
> doesn't
> believe he seems to respect his family and their belief.
>
> > How do you accomodate doubt?
>
> Firstly by accepting that there will always be doubt. The legal system
> convicts
> people 'beyond reasonable doubt' recognising that some doubt is
> reasonable and
> some is not.
>
> Secondly by mostly ignoring it once I've decided it isn't reasonable, or
> if it
> is in regards to something I regard as unimportant. A case in point is
> one of the
> reasons I'm not a church member. Constitution says I have to believe
> that when I
> dies I will go straight to heaven. I believe that when I die I 'sleep'
> until Jesus
> calls me to heaven, though I wont be conscious of any time passage. I have a
> lot of doubt about my belief but after looking into the scripture I
> cannot find
> any arguments that convince me strongly one way or the other. But the
> area is
> unimportant and the 'difference' between the 2 positions merely semantic
> so I
> don't think about it.
>
> However I have very little doubt that God wants me to be a man of
> integrity. The
> doubt is in extreme conditions would you lie to keep Jews being sent to a
> concentration camp? Again I don't think about the doubt. But when asked
> to be a
> church member I cannot say I believe the bit about being immediately
> with God
> even though I admit it is only a semantic difference. If I said I
> believed what
> I don't where is my integrity? Obviously not the whole reason I'm not a
> member
> since I could probably get a dispensation from a meeting for that
> difference in
> belief.
>
> Sometimes doubt surfaces, maybe a new fact or perspective then I must
> review the
> information I have, see if there is more available and then review my
> 'conclusions'
> that I draw from those facts. Also I ask why doubt has surfaced, as I
> try to
> understand me better.
>
> For me doubt always resurfaces when I see/hear someone like you dad who
> obviously
> has a great deal of emotional involvement/passion with his belief where as I
> have almost none. Does this mean I don't really believe or God isn't
> somehow in
> my life blah blah. So far my conclusion is that it does not mean that and I
> push on but obviously part of me doesn't believe it or doubt wouldn't keep
> surfacing; reasons for that conclusion are to long to type, feel free to
> ask, if
> it is of relevance, one day when in the same room.
>
> I cannot see how you will eliminate doubt from any position you end up
> taking,
> atheist, agnostic, god fearing (any god).
> So you will have to manage it somehow. Life where you changed direction
> every time
> you doubted something would seem less than workable.
>
> You will probably also have to live with questions you cannot answer. I
> have a
> few that have shaken what I believe and to which I have no good answers.
> Fortunately
> those questions I cannot resolve fit into the non-essential category
> (just). However
> they do make you uncomfortable and it can be a little embarrassing to not be
> able to answer them when they are asked by others.
>
> I often though of running a bible study that looked at
> difficult/unanswerable
> questions. One that simply explored different biblical perspectives on the
> questions not one that supplied answers.
>
> Never ran one because I didn't want to expose people to doubts they
> might never
> encounter. Maybe I should have.
>
> I don't deny that my doubts exist, if asked. But don't broadcast them
> either, unless
> I'm in the process of resolving them and I need others wisdom, knowledge or
> company to help me with it. Part of that is because if I have 'resolved'
> doubt
> in my mind I don't think about it, as I said, so why would I talk about
> it unless
> it is relevant.
>
> If going into specific doubts will help I can probably do that sometime.
>
> > That's about it really, and why I'm asking lots of questions to lots
> of people.
> > Although I am somewhat disenchanted with the disconformity of the
> faith, but
> > let's not open that can of worms just yet. Though I am more than
> happy to.
>
> Join the disenchanted club as one of our newest members. The truth, or
> untruth,
> of the bible doesn't change just because the people trying to live it
> out fail
> miserably, or because we do.
>
> I'd be interested to know which disconformities are most galling to you, as
> I'm sure you will look at it with very different eyes to me. But in
> general it is
> curiosity and a desire to understand your perspective better. Cause I
> recognise
> my way of viewing the world is very limited if I can see through your eyes I
> can possibly broaden my perspectives
>
> For areas that deal with St Clair, Youth Group or me I'm interested
> because it is
> often difficult to see areas where you fail, like trying to see that
> spot in the
> middle of your back. But probably a discussion, or two, topic best
> followed over
> coffee, or in beer garden somewhere.
>
> Well so ends this attempt to answer your questions. Hope it gives you
> something
> to mull over.
>
> L8TR
>
> john
>
> PS love to have you both to tea one night before we head off to the
> Philippines
> @ end Nov if UR interested, or after we return. Wont be late as John the
> eldest
> has to be in bed earlyish, unless it was a none Youth Bible study Friday
> :-) Love
> to hear your reflections on where you are on your journey.