Me and Mr Windle - the prequel

More stuff between me and Mr Windle. This was his first and then my first reply. again, jst a snapshot of the larger discussion.


-----------------------------------

Hi John,

using my work email as well as personal because work is realllllllyyyy borrriiinnnngggg. and i can't access personal email from here, except on my phone which is hard to type on.

Firstly a huge thanks for your response. It felt completely sincere and honest as well, and I really appreciate it. Responses can be pretty convoluted in this type of thing, as the question can be quite challenging, so to have someone be straightforward about it all is quite refreshing, especially in the way you perceive how you came into the faith and knowing how your personality and character influenced that journey.

I'm in a very strange spot at the moment. I decided that being a Christian because it was how I was raised, or because I was lucky to be in the right places at the right time wasn't good enough. I figured that if Christianity is true, and God truly cares, anyone who seeks him sincerely would find him. So I tried that and now find myself moving away from it, which is really frustrating and hard, because I'm continously trying to do the right thing, and always questioning myself, and asking others, and insofar they've encouraged me in this. It's like "what the hell God? am I really meant to be going this way?" And why then, are others still in the faith and satisfied with it, and I am not?

So to hear what you had to say is really encouraging. I can't say that it will rejuvinate my faith or anything,but it definately provides some healthy insight.

Interestingly enough the resurrection and who Jesus is remains highly interesting to me. And whilst I can't say I feel "closer" to God since really going deeper with my struggles the little that I do have feels a lot more real. Its a predominantly "thanks" laden relationship.

I guess my largest problem with pretty much all of it is certainty. My experience of the church, christianity and scriptures shows it all to be hugely subjective. This includes the scriptures, our interpretation of them, our experience of christianity, the origins of the scriptures, the chirstian lifestyle. Pretty much everything actually. It's all very inconsistent, even to a very fundamental level. People reduce it to "it depends what you believe about Jesus," But in turn I think that is ridiculous, considering that the information we have on Jesus comes from a billion different sources, changes with every church, and is usually obscure or bias. And that also means God let's it stay that way. I mean, if me and some other close friends, have lived it for 21 years, and then tore out our hair about it for the past 4, searching frantically and sincerely, and still are confused and unsure about it, then what the how can everyone else be?

In my experience I'm finding that they aren't, but they find excuses to behave as if they are. Or they convince themselves. Like most religions. Which is a pretty difficult concept to grapple with when most of the people you love and care for are in it. I know that people are a poor reflection of God, and that just cos they're doing crap doesn't mean God is crap, but to be honest, he's God, and he's letting them do it that way. I'm finding Chrsitianity is a poor reflection on God. Should I not let that get in the way?

Maybe God's just keeping the lights off. i don't know.

either way I'll keep seeking Truth/God, the two are inseperable to me. But i cannot pretend to be certain about something so elusive. If God wanted me to be certain, than I would assume he'd give me the evidence to be. I'm doing my best, and if that's not good enough I was boned in the first place, and salvtion comes down to dumb luck: Being born int he right place, at the right time, with the right people, and then picking the right denominations, sect, or religion.

Bit of a rant, I apologize but I really need to express myself, because this whole thing is really really really really really really hard, and most Chrsitians haven't really been empathetic, most jsut don't know how to.

Please feel free to comment on anything and everything. Feedback and criticism is good, and keeps me in check with reality and other perspectives.

P.S

i've discarded the traiditonal concept of hell, even from a Chrsitian perspective. it might be alluded to in the Bible, but the idea of allowing people to exist solely for the sake of suffering is completely irreconiable with the idea of a God that loves his creation. I even read an essay that said there isn't huge grounds for it biblically, and it was a device used by the early church for control, that's filtered through the years. Jews didn't even believe in heaven and hell apparently. So if I were a christian I'd say that hell is something different. But God allowing eternal suffering to happen to people for just being people is ridiculously cruel on his part. I can't believe taht about God. And if he is like that..... Shit.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks again for the response John, and also reading this email, even if you didn't want to and weren't expecting it :p

---

From: michael thackray [mailto:mjthackray@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 11:34 AM
To: Thackray, Michael
Subject: FW: reply at last

> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:44:54 +1100
> From: jon@phitz.au.com
> To: Mjthackray@hotmail.com
> Subject: reply at last
>
> Hi Michael
>
> Apologies this took so long. I regret that it isn't the eloquent defense
> of my
> faith that will inspire you to turn your life upside down and become a
> missionary
> in Uganda. Instead it is a random jumble of responses that I hope at
> least honestly
> answer your questions. Feel free to ask any clarification or more
> specific questions,
> just don't expect a speedy or coherent response :-)
>
> I could play with words for a few more weeks trying to build them in to
> the above
> mentioned eloquent defense but my experience tells me that if I did that
> they would
> be no more eloquent than they are already. Well so much for my English
> expression
> dysfunction onto your questions:
>
> > Just what is Christianity to you?
> Often it is a real pain in the backside to which I am convinced there is no
> viable alternative, at least to my limited observations and more limited
> investigations, to avoid hell. It is a constant obligation to work at
> things,
> be they personal or practical, to which I will fail to reach what I believe
> is the required standard. That I know I can never achieve the standard
> asked of
> me can be somewhat depressing and makes me tend towards spritual
> nihilism, instead
> of appreciating the grace extended to me which would be a more fitting
> response.
>
> Might be relevant to say that without Christianity much of my morals and
> practices
> would probably be the same. It is unlikely I'd do drugs, or get involved
> in orgies,
> or steal those things just seem dumb. But that is only conjecture as I
> became a
> christian at about 12.
>
> > Do you believe it because it is true?
> Initially I believed because my Mum told me it was true and it was
> something that
> I really wanted to be true. I was 12 and afraid of dying and through
> death being
> separated from my parents; odd since I never missed them when I went
> away to camp
> or Dad was off at sea working. I don't understand it either :-)
>
> And despite the fact I would now class some of Mums beliefs as heretical
> I expect
> that some of the reason I persist in the faith, and possibly formed the
> view/interpretation of facts I later searched out, was due to the
> underlying
> 'infallibility' of my mother. Though I examine what I believe, and my
> motives
> for belief, I cannot 'see' that in them I acknowledge the possibility as we
> often don't 'see' our cultural, or other, conditioning.
>
> My first investigation was in Yr 11 when I did one of the major essays for
> General Studies on the validity of the scriptures. As a way of
> 'evangelising'
> the class; much 'safer' than actually talking to people face to face.
> Major source
> was the first edition of Josh McDowels book Evidence that Demands a
> Verdict, it
> was much thinner then. I did a lot more work than required for the essay and
> became, and remain, convinced the bible says what it says and has been
> transmitted
> accurately. This is a separate issue to it's truth or validity.
>
> While I have learnt a lot more about the bible since then none of it
> convinced
> me it has not accurately passed down what was written.
>
> But the key thing that holds me to 'faith' is the fact of the
> resurrection of
> Jesus. Over the years I've thought about it and haven't come up with an
> alternative
> solution that explains the 'facts' in a more believable way. As Paul
> points out
> this is the key event on which Christianity relies.
>
> It is my inability that has 'forced' me to believe when I really didn't
> want to,
> when I hated the life God had for me and when I can see no purpose at all in
> continuing to follow the teachings, as I understand them, in the
> inadequate way
> that I do.
>
> The positive experiences, the 3 times I'm convinced God has 'spoken' to
> me, the times
> I would say I've seen him act and the short period of time when I'd say
> I felt
> his presence every day as real as you all mean nothing in those times.
> Because
> it isn't hard at all to rationalise them away, and I do, or twist them
> in ways
> that make my pointless life even more frustrating.
>
> > Do you believe it because it is what you prefer?
> Much of the time I don't like it. But I'm not sure I like the concept of
> living
> in a society where Christianity hadn't had a strong influence.
>
> I'd prefer something that allowed me to think I was significant, and
> that I could
> earn salvation rather than a person in need of grace just like everyone
> else. That
> preference would be solidly based in my pride and personal insecurities.
>
> > Are you fully convinced of the gospel or do you have reservations?
> I'm convinced 'beyond reasonable doubt' that Jesus rose from the dead,
> and that
> the gospels are accurate accounts of events. One of the best books for that
> was written by a lawyer in 1800's I think where he applied the Laws of
> Evidence
> as used is US courts to the Gospel. Apart from the strange English usage
> it is
> very good. Must buy another copy, loaned it out and it never came home.
>
> I'm much less convinced that I, let alone anyone else, accurately
> interpret the
> teachings of Jesus. Without being unduly influenced by my cultural
> conditioning
> and underlying self interest.
>
> > How do you handle those reservations if they are there?
> I tend to divide the gospel into essential and non-essential beliefs. So
> far most
> of my reservations have always been in non-essential stuff. The one time
> it wasn't
> caused me much 'distress' till I was able to resolve it, found more
> facts to help
> point out my question had created unreasonable doubt.
>
> Further comment would be similar to the section on doubt I guess. I've
> only just
> realised the difference between reservation and doubt as I go to send
> this. So
> rather than explore this further I'll just send it before you give up on
> getting
> a reply.
>
> > Understandably you have a very beautiful wife and child who need
> protecting,
> > and would like to provide a optimal way of life for.
> > Does this effect how you practice your faith?
> You could re-ask this by putting life instead of faith. And being
> married and having
> a child changes everything, at least a little. I now have 2 people I
> have to consider
> above my desire to be busy with Youth Group or other church things
> though I must
> not put them above loving God; this causes a strange discontinuity for
> me as I
> have always associated loving God with being busy for him (closely
> linked with my
> desire to earn salvation or prove my worth no doubt)
>
> Biblically there are responsibilities on married men that don't exist
> for single
> men. This must change your focus a little. Paul recognises the change
> that being
> married causes in our service of God and recommends we stay single.
>
> More specific than that I cannot be as I am still trying to work out how
> I best
> work out my faith in the context of being married and being a parent. I
> know it
> means I have to set John an example of faithful living and I don't
> believe it
> means I have to brainwash him into the faith though I do need to inform
> him.
>
> God gave man free will and that applies to everyone, even John. I always
> got
> frustrated with parents of Youth who assumed there kids must be
> Christians because
> they were. Hopefully I will remember that if he chooses to not follow
> Christ. For
> me the Bills are a great example, they love Shannon and want him to
> believe but
> they don't make their love conditional on him 'conforming' and while he
> doesn't
> believe he seems to respect his family and their belief.
>
> > How do you accomodate doubt?
>
> Firstly by accepting that there will always be doubt. The legal system
> convicts
> people 'beyond reasonable doubt' recognising that some doubt is
> reasonable and
> some is not.
>
> Secondly by mostly ignoring it once I've decided it isn't reasonable, or
> if it
> is in regards to something I regard as unimportant. A case in point is
> one of the
> reasons I'm not a church member. Constitution says I have to believe
> that when I
> dies I will go straight to heaven. I believe that when I die I 'sleep'
> until Jesus
> calls me to heaven, though I wont be conscious of any time passage. I have a
> lot of doubt about my belief but after looking into the scripture I
> cannot find
> any arguments that convince me strongly one way or the other. But the
> area is
> unimportant and the 'difference' between the 2 positions merely semantic
> so I
> don't think about it.
>
> However I have very little doubt that God wants me to be a man of
> integrity. The
> doubt is in extreme conditions would you lie to keep Jews being sent to a
> concentration camp? Again I don't think about the doubt. But when asked
> to be a
> church member I cannot say I believe the bit about being immediately
> with God
> even though I admit it is only a semantic difference. If I said I
> believed what
> I don't where is my integrity? Obviously not the whole reason I'm not a
> member
> since I could probably get a dispensation from a meeting for that
> difference in
> belief.
>
> Sometimes doubt surfaces, maybe a new fact or perspective then I must
> review the
> information I have, see if there is more available and then review my
> 'conclusions'
> that I draw from those facts. Also I ask why doubt has surfaced, as I
> try to
> understand me better.
>
> For me doubt always resurfaces when I see/hear someone like you dad who
> obviously
> has a great deal of emotional involvement/passion with his belief where as I
> have almost none. Does this mean I don't really believe or God isn't
> somehow in
> my life blah blah. So far my conclusion is that it does not mean that and I
> push on but obviously part of me doesn't believe it or doubt wouldn't keep
> surfacing; reasons for that conclusion are to long to type, feel free to
> ask, if
> it is of relevance, one day when in the same room.
>
> I cannot see how you will eliminate doubt from any position you end up
> taking,
> atheist, agnostic, god fearing (any god).
> So you will have to manage it somehow. Life where you changed direction
> every time
> you doubted something would seem less than workable.
>
> You will probably also have to live with questions you cannot answer. I
> have a
> few that have shaken what I believe and to which I have no good answers.
> Fortunately
> those questions I cannot resolve fit into the non-essential category
> (just). However
> they do make you uncomfortable and it can be a little embarrassing to not be
> able to answer them when they are asked by others.
>
> I often though of running a bible study that looked at
> difficult/unanswerable
> questions. One that simply explored different biblical perspectives on the
> questions not one that supplied answers.
>
> Never ran one because I didn't want to expose people to doubts they
> might never
> encounter. Maybe I should have.
>
> I don't deny that my doubts exist, if asked. But don't broadcast them
> either, unless
> I'm in the process of resolving them and I need others wisdom, knowledge or
> company to help me with it. Part of that is because if I have 'resolved'
> doubt
> in my mind I don't think about it, as I said, so why would I talk about
> it unless
> it is relevant.
>
> If going into specific doubts will help I can probably do that sometime.
>
> > That's about it really, and why I'm asking lots of questions to lots
> of people.
> > Although I am somewhat disenchanted with the disconformity of the
> faith, but
> > let's not open that can of worms just yet. Though I am more than
> happy to.
>
> Join the disenchanted club as one of our newest members. The truth, or
> untruth,
> of the bible doesn't change just because the people trying to live it
> out fail
> miserably, or because we do.
>
> I'd be interested to know which disconformities are most galling to you, as
> I'm sure you will look at it with very different eyes to me. But in
> general it is
> curiosity and a desire to understand your perspective better. Cause I
> recognise
> my way of viewing the world is very limited if I can see through your eyes I
> can possibly broaden my perspectives
>
> For areas that deal with St Clair, Youth Group or me I'm interested
> because it is
> often difficult to see areas where you fail, like trying to see that
> spot in the
> middle of your back. But probably a discussion, or two, topic best
> followed over
> coffee, or in beer garden somewhere.
>
> Well so ends this attempt to answer your questions. Hope it gives you
> something
> to mull over.
>
> L8TR
>
> john
>
> PS love to have you both to tea one night before we head off to the
> Philippines
> @ end Nov if UR interested, or after we return. Wont be late as John the
> eldest
> has to be in bed earlyish, unless it was a none Youth Bible study Friday
> :-) Love
> to hear your reflections on where you are on your journey.

Me and Mr Jansons

This is an email between me and the Pastor of my old church. He's a really great guy and has treated me so respectfully and honestly, and really been open to what I've had to say. We did meet up, and I hope we do again in the future, as he has a lot I think I could learn from. It was really encouraging to know that there are believers out there genuinely interested in my issues, beyond "holy crap lets make him a christian again."

I have removed one or two sentences that I found a bit too public.

-----------------------------------

Hi Neil,

No problem. I have always held you as reasonable and impartial man, and I know that I can.

I am open to meeting semi-regularly, although with work and marriage fitting it in might be a task, but I think it'd be good for me, and I'd love to hear your story. If might also give my father some peace of mind. I'll give it some more thought, but when would you be free too? just so I can work towards it.

With my father, it is quite frankly difficult. He has a very 'set' view of things, for lack of a better word, and I have to come to accept that he is going to try and squeeze me into it, and I'm just going to make it very hard for him to do that. I still love him a lot. We're going to butt heads a lot, we've both acknowledged that, and it will cause strain but I am comforted in the knowledge that above all else he still loves me, and he'll have to face me for what I am, not what he tries to perceive me to be.

I appreciate your fourth point, and it's reassuring to see that humility, and I think highlights the need for me to meet with you regularly, and continuly seek other points of view.

Thanks again for everything Neil. I appreciate your understanding and more importantly your empathy. I know my family and church family care about where I am, It's just hard to see if they care why I'm there.

Regards

---

From: neil@stclairbaptist.org.au [mailto:neil@stclairbaptist.org.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 20 October 2009 4:48 PM
To: Thackray, Michael
Subject: Re: Michael Thackray says hi and all this other stuff

Hi Michael
First of all thanks for trusting me with this stuff.
Secondly I would like to make myself available to meet with you regularly or semi-regularly not for me to convince you of anything but rather to hear you. I think you may be very surprised how similar parts of our journeys may be. In fact many years ago when I was struggling with stuff I met with Les Scarborough in a similar way. I would count it a privilege if I could serve you in this way.
Thirdly (and I hold my breath saying this in case you take it the wrong way) I want to tell you that I have concerns about things your father has said to me (and some publicly) about you. I have tried to pursue some of them with him, realising that he is your father and feels things very deeply but without a great deal of success.
Fourthly I also have to say that there are possibly many things that I have quite different opinions on to that of your father and/or John Windle. There may be things I have quite different opinions on to you as well. That's life. Learning to accept each other for who we are is a mark of respect that I believe is essential in life. I do not have an infallible understanding of God, life or the universe. Nor does anyone else. We are all struggling in our own ways to understand these things. None of us have made it. There are opinions I have that I don't air publicly for fear of being misunderstood, because I don't think my opinions will be helpful to others or simply because I am still working them out.
Hope this all makes some sense
bless ya
Neil


Thackray, Michael wrote:

Hi Neil,

Hope things are well with you.

I'm writing this email because I think it is good to be transparent and honest in all things, and to avoid keeping you, amonst others (e.g my father, John Windle etc.) in the dark as to where I stand with Church and being a Christian. Also I don't want to be dismissed as a mere apostate or something, because that's probably exactly what I would've done if I had seen someone like myself today, 3 or 4 years ago, and I think that would be an unfair judgement on me. I don't think you personally hold that view, but others might.

It's hard to know where to start or what to say exactly so forgive me if I'm somewhat incoherent. Basically at some point I decided living as a Chrsitian because I was raised as one, or because I had the right friends, or I was merely in the right place at the right time wasn't good enough. I decided that I'd seek God and the Truth sincerely, so that irrespective of my cultural and religious upbringing God would lead me to him. So I'm doing that now, and it really sucks. In order to maintain sincerity and integrity in this journey I have to look at all things carefully and crticially, and I that includes the faith I was brought up in, and I can't pretend to be certain about it short of either lying to myself and those around me, or brainwashing myself. And I think deluding myself or pretending about something as important as this is would be a foolish gamble.

So it sucks big time. I'm pretty much what most of us would call an 'apostate/backslider,' and it's pretty much because I've endeavoured to seek God sincerely and impartially, and I am constantly doubting myself everyday, asking questions everyday to myself and to others, and pray a crapload, but I'm still plagued with uncertainty. Maybe God's intentionally keeping me in the dark, or holding out on giving me whatever it is that allows people to be so sure in their faith, or maybe there's problems with the whole things. I don't know. And those three words pretty much sum up where I'm at. And after 21 years of living it, and the past 3-4 years trying to prove it, I still don't know, and I can longer pretend I do. i can't merely have faith, because then it's just a matter of dumb luck - I have faith in the right God, religion, sect, etc. and is something akin to blind trust.

I still remain committed to God, especially God as truth (the two are inseperable to me) as mysterious as he is. I remain open-minded and my heart is not hardened. If God is who I was told he was, then he is guiding my steps, but insofar the lights have remained of, and there are many problems with Christianity that I have not found good answers for, merely excuses, although I will keep searching. Jesus and his resurrection remains an enigma but something I am highly interested in but I cannot pretend to be certain about it.

I still think there's a lot of beautiful people in the Church, I think the community aspect is great, and there's a lot of truth and love there too both of which are very important things, and I understand that we are only human, but I am finding that there are too many holes and problems that are continously overlooked for me to continue in it, and if I'm too take seeking God and the Truth seriously, I am not permitted to with things as they stand. Perhaps as I keep moving forward that will change.

I will probably still attend every now and then, and be involved with the people there, as I think there's still a lot the church has to offer, and even where I can serve my fellow man. Love is important, and church does it pretty well for the most part. And most of my values are still in-line with Christians. It's the facts I am struggling with.

I'd ask that you be careful about this information. I don't wish to deceive people, but I am being very selective and cautious about how I share my journey, thoughts and feelings. This is because I can appreciate how easy it is for people to misunderstand and dismiss me, and I don't want people forming opinions about until they've at least tried to understand my position. Kyle for example, whom I love like a brother, is already beginning to dismiss me as some hedonistic rebellious new age weirdo, and I know I would've done the same thing, but it still sucks and it still hurts. However I trust your judgement, in that you will endeavour to ensure misunderstandings do not occur.

I'm more than happy to talk about and share what I'm going through. Just make sure your not telling me things I've heard for the past 21 years. It can be a bit frustrating when people say them as I've never heard them before. Especially when I probably know it better than they do :p

Otherwise, I thought you would want to know, and as the pastor of St Clair, have a right to know.

God bless (if he wants to anyways),

Michael

ME and Mr Windle

This is part of an ongoing exchange between me and a good friend of mine who loves discussion and has been a real encouragement to me throughout this whole thing. I'm sure he doesn't mind me sharing. This is just an excerpt I found. There's plenty more. This is about a month old.

First email is further down, the reply comes first.

---------------------

Hi John,

Upon re-reading the below, it strikes me as quite heavy and even a bit exasperative (if that's a word). I apologize if you feel that this frustration is directed at you. I assure it is not. I have nothing but gratitude for your attempts to assist me in my questions and struggles and all that jazz. It's just that it is a very frustrating journey, especially with the whole relationships/family elements, and that sometimes comes out.

Please feel free to be critical (I need you to be actually), but use the same measure on any alternative answer/reply you might offer. I think the term is 'verbal mirror.' I endevaour to use it whenever I examine an issue. I have found it useful for keeping myself impartial (I hope so anyways, knowing that I myself am quite subjective).

Again thank you,

Thanks for getting back me to John. To be honest I've checked out most of what you've said. I didn't ask these questions and not look for reasonable answers. I'll outline some of the problems I have below:

Firstly I think music's a terrible comparison. Whilst faith might be somewhat subjective it still requires some sense of order and , music is completely subjective. But I think the conflict here arises from the word 'satisfied.'

The conclusions I'm leaning towards is that people are content(satisfied) to ignore gaping holes and problems in their faith in order to protect their way of life. This is common of almost all walks of life and faiths, and the implication is that the truth doesn't matter. Quite difficult to swallow considering Christianity in particular is always claiming it has the Truth in Jesus. I am afraid that Christian's are content to live in either a deception or a delusion for the sake of having those beliefs and an (albeit false) sense of security, and the case for this becomes more apparent the more I learn people's reasons for faith.

Another difficulty is that you are still interpreting my arguments as most christians like to see them. It's exactly what I use to do. I will try and express my opinions more thoroughly and clarify them continously so that it is easier for you to understand them for what they are, as if they cannot be established than our conversations will mostly consist of misunderstanding, something neither of us would enjoy I think :p

I'd say the examples you derive from the Bible are too subjective for me to take on board seriously. The validity may or may not be there, but at the moment, I am not Jewish, and I was born something like 4000 years later, I dont' know what actually happened and I'm not sure how much is narration and how much is fact, or how much is lost in interpretation or who the devil is. and all that, so I myself really can't use those as a comparison.

'So even if God revealed himself to you in a way which left no doubt it is not certain you'd fall to your knees and worship him. The devil doesn't :-)'

I can agree with this statement in this: If God was a complete asshole, I might not.

However you should know this: God, regardless of the particulars, remains God by sheer definition. Whether he is malevolent or not does not change this fact. He may or may not be nice. Either way I'm certainly not going to get into his way. Even if that involves falling to my knees and worshipping him.

That aside my problem isn't whether God exists or not. I think that question get's lost in definition anyway. The fact is if God cannot afford me a degree of certainty than I have no business being certain, and I cannot have anymore faith in christianity then another walk of life without being bias and forgoing reason. If this is what God is calling me to do I cannot do it, and it is completely unreaslistic for him to expect me to, especially considering the fact that he made me this way and put me in this place, and I've come to this point through seeking him.

And the thing is even if I extensively research the Gospels and find them to be true, hurrah for me, but that has huge implications about the character of God, especially considering how earnest some outside the faith seek him, and how apathetically some in it do, and that is his divider for salvation. I would follow God unswervingly but I would give up on the pretence that he loves everyone equally, or that he even loves everyone if happily selects a complete asshole for eternal paradise and then an absolutely selfless non-christian for damnation. Unless he provides to me a very good reason for doing so.

What would you have God do about it? Does he remove our free will and make a race of robots?

If you examine that argument critically you'll understand how ridiculous I find it. How about the following:

don't send people to eternal suffering for being what he made them. That's like designing turd and expecting to fly or something, and then setting it on fire forever for not.

Let me seeking for him actually find him, and everyone else for that matter, which in turn leads to: make yourself findable, without forcing us to forgo the only tools of perceiving life we were made with.

I could go on, but I won't, because God will do whatever he wants. It's just to claim that if he expects things of us without providing us the ability to do it, then we're screwed in the first place, and we can accept the facts, but have no business accepting the blame.

i would rather be a robot in eternal paradise, than anything and in eternal suffering. so if that's what it takes, I'm happy to be a robot. in fact, pretty much everyone who's been asked that question has said that. But I don't think that's what God expects or wants, him giving me ability to use a brain being an indication of that.

All in all we are actually in agreeance for the most part:

People are shit. They are just people. and each of us must offer the best we can. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do. But for me, I am all to dissatisfied with the fact that with the faith, all the facts, all the rules, all the messages, all the divine claims, all the interpretations, come through these people. If I settled for that I am offering much less to God then I am capable of.

"If you are searching for certainty I doubt you'll find it."

If this is the case, then I have no business being certain about Christianity and neither does anyone else short of some divine revelation that I am not prviy to, let alone proclaiming and preaching it to other people as anything more than a meager attempt at God and Truth

As for the Bible, I'm too uncertain about it to be certain about it's certainty about how useless certainty is.

Sorry to respond so heavily, but I just think that it's essential to clarify these things before you go on, because I dread the thought of my journey and questions being pigeon-holed.

Like previously, I will keep looking into Jesus and the Resurrection, but even whether that is true or not, the obscurity and difficulty in determining it's crediblity itself has implications as to what it means, and what God intended through it by allowing this ambiguty surrounding it to exist.

Insofar, the Christian faith as most people approach and understand it, I perceive to be insufficient in terms of sincerely, earnestly and impartially seeking God, particularly, God as Truth.

At the moment my questioning is to derive as much truth from it as I can, as to help me keep seeking God.

So all that aside, I wish to restate my gratitude towards you John. My appreciation for your earnest attempts to understand me goes deeper than you think, and for me at least, speaks mountains of your character and selflessness, even to the point of sharing your own story and struggles.

---

From: John Windle [mailto:john.windle@silverbrookresearch.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 October 2009 7:10 AM
To: Thackray, Michael
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: reply at last]

Hi Michael

From my work, in the space where I use to run before work I had time to start a reply. Haven't made it to the essay bit at the end yet, later.

So my response Part 1:

I'm in a very strange spot at the moment. I decided that being a Christian because it was how I was raised, or because I was lucky to be in the right places at the right time wasn't good enough. I figured that if Christianity is true, and God truly cares, anyone who seeks him sincerely would find him.

So I tried that and now find myself moving away from it, which is really frustrating and hard, because I'm continously trying to do the right thing, and always questioning myself, and asking others, and insofar they've encouraged me in this. It's like "what the hell God? am I really meant to be going this way?" And why then, are others still in the faith and satisfied with it, and I am not?

And yet you are not surprised that other people like different music to you and probably don't feel a desire to have your musical taste conform to theirs.

Interestingly enough the resurrection and who Jesus is remains highly interesting to me.

As I said the crux of our faith, if it didn't happen we are wasting our time, if it did then we are forced to take what Jesus said about our response to God seriously regardless of how we feel about it.

And whilst I can't say I feel "closer" to God since really going deeper with my struggles the little that I do have feels a lot more real. Its a predominantly "thanks" laden relationship.

Gold.

I guess my largest problem with pretty much all of it is certainty. My experience of the church, christianity and scriptures shows it all to be hugely subjective. This includes the scriptures, our interpretation of them, our experience of christianity, the origins of the scriptures, the chirstian lifestyle. Pretty much everything actually.

I have revisited the certainty issue a lot over the years as I like certainty. I would suggest that the Bible starts in Genesis with absolute certainty about God, but it doesn't help Adam and Eve. As we progress forwards through the bible and get temporally further away from creation uncertainty increases at the Exodus given all the people had seen and experienced and were experiencing (they were still gathering manna 6 days a week) they still asked Aaron to make them a Golden Image.

So even if God revealed himself to you in a way which left no doubt it is not certain you'd fall to your knees and worship him. The devil doesn't :-)

It's all very inconsistent, even to a very fundamental level. People reduce it to "it depends what you believe about Jesus," But in turn I think that is ridiculous, considering that the information we have on Jesus comes from a billion different sources, changes with every church, and is usually obscure or bias. And that also means God let's it stay that way. I mean, if me and some other close friends, have lived it for 21 years, and then tore out our hair about it for the past 4, searching frantically and sincerely, and still are confused and unsure about it, then what the how can everyone else be?

What are you searching for precisely? But yes God does allow it to be that way but again when we look at Israel who had a much more rigid definition of God with less room for differences, though they still managed it (Sadducee's and Pharisees), it didn't help them be more faithful or keep most of them from worshiping idols.

In my experience I'm finding that they aren't, but they find excuses to behave as if they are. Or they convince themselves. Like most religions. Which is a pretty difficult concept to grapple with when most of the people you love and care for are in it. I know that people are a poor reflection of God, and that just cos they're doing crap doesn't mean God is crap, but to be honest, he's God, and he's letting them do it that way. I'm finding Chrsitianity is a poor reflection on God. Should I not let that get in the way?

What would you have God do about it? Does he remove our free will and make a race of robots?

That we all respond to him differently, to one extent or another, is not really surprising given that he made us individuals. It's similar to your family, it would appear all of you kids love your parents but I'd suggest (without any concrete examples and so it could be crap) that you each show that love in different ways to each other. Just as your parents have different ways of expressing their love towards you.

When I come to God I can only offer what I have out of who I am, if I'm inclined to offer anything. And even them my offering is likely to be much less than pure.

I think you will find that many christians will know they are doing a poor job of reflecting God. Not many are willing to say out loud, as Paul did, that others should follow their example and they would be more Godly. Most are aware of what a shit poor example we are. And if you think it is difficult looking at other who fail it is worse when you look at yourself and you know that despite what anyone else may think you have been a outright failure at living up to your own standards for honoring God, let alone Gods standards.

Doubt their personal failures are topics most people are comfortable with. I'm certainly not and wouldn't bring them up in casual conversation, but past events make me aware that they are pubic property so I wont hide them from people who want to know; they just have to ask.

Maybe God's just keeping the lights off. i don't know.

It is always possible, given Mark 4:10-12, though I'm not sure that the context applies.

either way I'll keep seeking Truth/God, the two are inseperable to me. But i cannot pretend to be certain about something so elusive. If God wanted me to be certain, than I would assume he'd give me the evidence to be. I'm doing my best, and if that's not good enough I was boned in the first place, and salvtion comes down to dumb luck: Being born int he right place, at the right time, with the right people, and then picking the right denominations, sect, or religion.

If you are searching for certainty I doubt you'll find it. Best I've managed is beyond reasonable doubt. Try focusing on the resurrection it is the crux of our faith; just ask the apostle Paul. I'm convinced that the Bible indicates certainty wouldn't help us (well me really) as much as we (I) like to think it would.

Well time to start work so Part 1 concludes here. Part 2 later.

Have a good day.

john

I posted this on Facebook ages ago. Must say I've come a long way. The most amusing is the prodigal son pre-emptive advice.

Michael Thackray: Does it boil down to Hell?

Does it boil down to Hell?

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Wednesday, November 5, 2008 at 12:34am | Edit Note | Delete

After reading the accounts of several parental figures who were or are in religious dispositions regarding the raising of children in faith, it seemed that most attested to the most compelling argument a child finds for attaching them selves to particular religion or belief system is predominantly the fear of hell. Across the board, in my experience, many teacher figures try to draw attention and focus to the goodness of God, and the more attractive traits of their deity, however as I recall my main concern in my extreme youth was avoiding this concept of eternal suffering.
Why do I find this so disturbing? That that which is considered respectable and good by so many of us accommodates the instilling of fear into those we deem most innocent.
Is that what drove me to ultimately champion a faith so strongly and I would dare to admit, biasedly, in my life?
Damnation isn't appealing. In fact, it should probably be avoided at all costs. But what are the costs? What are we forcing ourselves to compromise to avoid this notion? This fear that is embedded within us as part of a Godly upbringing, it has taken things away.
The truth is compromised, the opportunities are left, and people sit, afraid to stray even just a little, for who knows where that chasm lies?

However this is life, and life is for living as far as I have seen. So I must stray. Straying enables me to see, and without seeing I would be no different to any other blind man.

Hell as I have come to fear it does not make sense to me, and not with the God I have come to know.
I struggle to believe that so much simply boils down to hell.

Updated over a year ago · Comment ·

Rob Newham

thats a really cool concept man :-) i liked the writing style too.

November 5, 2008 at 1:16am · Delete

Jon Owen

Thanks for your candid thoughts man, now don't let your dad read this!

November 5, 2008 at 5:05am · Delete

David Burton

Hey Michael,

Not sure I understand your note but if it means you are struggling to believe that God is a loving Dad and only has the best for you when he says stay on the narrow path than I'd encourage you to do two things:

a.

November 5, 2008 at 6:20am · Delete

David Burton

Bugga me ... Facebook ... how did that post ... try again !! Baby Boomer struggling with Facebook!

Try reading Case for Faith by Lee Strobel. Available from Koorong - ex Atheist ...fascinating book

Look at the world and you will see the people with their lives together are christians ... that is those who really follow the gospel and give their... Read More lives up for God ..e.g. Heidi Baker. Your Dad is a wonderful guy and while I don't always agree with him (actually you probably dont rememebr a certain discussion we (your Dad and me) had when you were little and it was so strong you got scared!) his heart is in the right place. Don't let his view of Christianity get in the way of what is best for you. '"Ëxploring"the world can have long term earthly and eternal consequences .... like I said .... as Proverbs says .. Öbserve the world and the fools therein.

November 5, 2008 at 6:26am · Delete

Benjamin Campbell

Yes... yes is all the affirmation I need to write.

This backs up some of my recent thinking that no matter what our studies indicate to be the truth, indoctrinating our children cannot be the constructive answer to anything. It means that they believe for the wrrong reasons, and makes things very confusing when they get older and wonder how much ... Read Moreof their belief is logical and how much for the sake of their parents and to avoid damnation. Ironically, the fact that you are now going through this process of distilling fact from fiction is a case in point.

At any rate, note is A+++, would read again, arrived in good condition and well wrapped

November 5, 2008 at 10:59am · Delete

Yort Warden

ebay!

November 5, 2008 at 5:06pm · Delete

Michael Thackray

Thanks for your replies.

David-
I can understand the angle at which you make your statements, and to to go into depth with everything would require more time and effort then I have now, however I must follow on from Ben's reply:
If I show an impartiality to Christian's and Christian teaching, and do not maintain a standard across the exploring of life then I am simply not being sincere in my search. What I believe is important, but why I believe something I think should be more so. I strive to believe in something because it is the truth, whatever that may be. If I do not explore, I cannot learn, If I cannot learn I cannot understand, If I do not understand, then I remain ignorant. ... Read More
I understand the need to be cautious in all things, to avoid rash decisions and to consider and pray through all things, however I cannot let caution compromise the sincerity and integrity of my search for truth. And if God is the truth, then I have nothing to fear.

November 5, 2008 at 6:21pm · Delete

Yort Warden

hmm...

November 5, 2008 at 7:19pm · Delete

Lindsey Phillip Carl Price

Micheal-
I think its a great idea that ur thinking about these things and searching for truth, but if ur since about doing this dont half ass it. Get out there and investigate. Maybe u should travel and research other churches, mosques, temples, and possible JW's and see wot they have to say, Dont just work off ur interpretation of the world thru ur church's upbringing. Also, Reflect on ur own church, is it theologically sound? Are you getting on with reading and understanding the Bible for urself and interpreting properly?

I have nothing against ur thoughts, infact i think their great. But remember you conclusions might not line up with an absolute truth unless researched properly with the Wider community, Sydney,NSW, Aust, World etc. Also take into account our culture greatly influences the way we think and come to conclusions, so be aware there are many different ways of thinking to our own.... Read More

Finally, i would like to say that, If God is truth and ur trusting in him with ur heart and not just ur head, with his atoning sacrifice then ur right u have nothing to lose by researching. (Psalm 139)

Yet If u come to the conclusion that there is no God, and life is meaningless, then lets us drink and be merry (Ecc 3:9-14)

But, If u come to the conclusion that God did create the universe, and we rebel against him and he still loves us and atones for our rebelions, then sh@t, we better get on with what he wants of us.

Well i hope this has all been helpful and not offensive, but just more food for thought. Cya round man ;)

November 6, 2008 at 11:11am · Delete

The greatest indication of human failure is unnecessary suffering.

I posted this on Facebook:

"That which should not be" is unfortunately 'that which is fairly common.' And non-exclusive for that matter. Any framework in which a person interacts, exists within in it some manifestation of unnecessary suffering that more often than not is marginalized, and ignored. Or perhaps even more common, a purpose for which is conjured. And to compensate for this reality is to emphasize the specks in other people's eyes, so frantically as to knock over people in the way with the massive plank extending from our own.

We attest that 'Our suffering is not unnecessary! It is completely necessary. Now let me quickly think of an excuse as to why!" What a failing on our part! We conjure up reasons in a bid to keep misery, because we cannot acknowledge that our lives are so jaded that we have allowed such unnecessary suffering to exist. What a subtle and cunning way for Pride to exert itself, both individually and communally.

The status quo must be in the process of continual renewal and evaluation. If suffering is presented, then establishing the integrity of it's purpose is paramount. The wooden spoon slaps the rear of a delinquent for a defined and worthy purpose. If the integrity of that purpose could not be ascertained, could not be correctly justified, it is then that the wooden spoon becomes a utensil for the expression of our evils, a mixer of the devil, and a scooper of misery!

Our lives, our communuities, our worlds, are full of suffering. But for what? And that is continuous question.

The greatest indication of human failure is unnecessary suffering.

These were the comments:

Cory Bill and Josh Jansons like this.

Benjamin Campbell

I thought about something along the same lines the other day. Your not kind of relates to an interesting psychological study which was released the other week: when people are being tortured, if they express more pain and let their suffering be known, the torturer actually responds subconsciously by believing them to be more guilty because they can... Read More't cope with the fact that they may be causing an innocent person suffering.

In much the same way, as human beings who are able to do something about human suffering the world over, we are essentially complicit in a form of torture... to which one natural (read: wrong) response is to assume that a higher power has rationed out his wrath and that this suffering is unavoidable.

What degree of ignorance is worth what measure of personal contentment at the state of the world? Can you justify your own response? Because some days I can't any more

November 5 at 10:19am · Delete

Cory Bill

There are some very good points in there. I think that part of the reason needless suffering exists is because we find it difficult to grasp things that are not able to be easily perceived. There is a significant gap between most peoples morals and their actions (I include myself in this).

This might be a defense mechanism to keep us from being ... Read Moreoverwhelmed or to ensure we don't sacrifice our own comfort. Or perhaps it is because of our inability to feel a significant amount of sincere compassion for those people who we don't have a relationship with (i.e. friends and family).

p.s. Did u write this yourself or were u using some other source? If u were I suggest referencing the source before you get done for plagiarism ;).

November 5 at 10:34am · Delete

Michael Thackray

That's a fantasic challenge ben. Thanks for issuing it, even if In Rhetoric.
I actually wrote this. At work of course, because the unnecessary suffering there doesn't change regardless how hard I work :p
I think corys point emphasizes the need for critical and wholisitic thinking. I'd like my actions to be a pure translation of my good intentions, but alack, that is easy to wish for, and really hard to do.

Alack is also a good word

November 5 at 11:57am · Delete

Cory Bill

Yea, I agree with that study Ben. I know that when I was younger I worked in a Chicken farm. I saw the very cramped conditions that they lived in and would pick up the numerous dead chooks which would die everyday. Sometimes I would actually have to kill the chooks if they were too sick. I found this quite upsetting as a young boy and it caused me some pain. However, my response to this was to develop quite a keen dislike and even hatred towards the chickens. I perceived them to be the cause of my pain. This caused me to stop caring about their well-being and I would even sometimes lash out at them maliciously.

I think that this reveals something quite deep in the human condition. I could draw some strong parallels between my response towards these chickens and the response the Nazi soldiers towards the Jews.

I don't think these soldiers were especially 'bad' people and I think that most people's 'personal narrative' display themselves as more or less 'good' people. Therefore in order to reconcile their actions with their concept of goodness the German soldier's perception of the Jews had to change. I don't think it would have taken long for the soldiers to start to hate the Jews for the pain which had been created in their conscience through empathy.... Read More

Their identity needed their actions to be justified, so it created an emotion of hatred which allowed them to continue doing what they were doing whilst maintaining their identity as 'good' people.

Of course this is just my speculation and thoughts without alot of research etc. so don't perceive this as having anymore authority than that.

November 5 at 5:11pm · Delete

Josh Jansons

Great discussion starter Mike. Love it.

Maybe I'm over-simplifying, or maybe you are talking about a different kind of suffering, but it got me thinking that unnecessary suffering can be attributed to humankind's "natural" desire for self-preservation. The actions that we take to self-preserve very rarely only involve what we need, and instead we ... Read Morestrive for excess as security.

Take for example that fact that lack of clean water kills more people every day then anything else, and then match that up againt the fact that the estimated cost to make clean water available to everyone on earth is $7 billion, whilst the amount of money Australian's spend on Christmas alone is $37 billion. Whilst this example is complicated and there are many more factors involved (politics etc) I think the point is clear: the even distribution of resources would result in less suffering in the world, and it's only the selfishness of billions (including myself) that allows it to continue.

November 5 at 5:55pm · Delete

Michael Thackray

wow i should get rich and fix water.

that's an interesting take, I shall dwell upon it. could you elaborate on 'self-preservation'

November 5 at 10:09pm · Delete

Giselle Bill

Another interesting idea is that of the "Just World Phenomenon" where individuals believe that in some way people get what they deserve. For example a study got participants to judge a woman based on a story (not a true one), the participants were broken into 2 groups and were given 1 of 2 stories which were identical except for the ending; where ... Read Morethe woman was either proposed to or raped. Participants who read the story about the woman who was raped judged her more harshly, whilst the group who read about the woman who was proposed to judged her positively, despite that there was no difference in the description of the woman, just what happened to her. Which has horrific implications regarding people who have had terrible things happen to them, as people are more likely to believe they deserve it. And you can see this attitude generalising to the real world. E.g. homeless people are there because of bad choices they make (despite that a huge proportion of homeless people have mental illness and I believe there has been a growing number of homeless people since mental asylums have closed down).

I think one of the side affects of the Just World thing is that if we believe that someones suffering is in some way their fault it takes away the need to help them and allows us to rationalise others suffering and also allows us to continue doing what we're doing without caring about anyone else. Furthermore, if we believe that we have money, comfort etc because we have done something to deserve it, then we will not find the need to have to help others.

And this continues on to what Ben and Cory were saying, when you see another being suffer (even when you are causing the pain) there is a tendency to believe that they deserve it, which means you don't have to feel bad about them suffering.

November 5 at 11:38pm · Delete

Josh Jansons

Hi Giselle - your Just World thing is incredibly interesting, and sad, but yes I can relate to that attitude and I think I am guilty of it in my own life.

Hi Mike - just to elabourate as requested. When I'm talking about self-preservation above, I'm talking about the natural desire to what to live, eg it is one of the underlying desires that ... Read Morecauses us to eat, drink, breath, sleep, not drive in front of a truck etc

And to continue on my point just a little further. It's not just water. Read "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger", or "Jesus Wants to Save Christians". There is a large belief out there that the suffering of the poor in the world would not happen if resources were distributed evenly.

Evilution? lol.

I found the whole evolution verse creation debate fairy frustrating at first, but now simply entertaining. I think the problem lies in that most people try to make the argument something that it isn't, and because of this you have hilarious irrationalities that people feel like they have to make familiarities of in order to maintain some consistency and integrity across their testimonies.

This stubborn insistence hurts their own cause though, their passion for something so irrelevant proves how much they've missed the point. Evolution remains a viable and plausible theory. Creationism becomes just a matter of particulars. We all know stuffed happened, 'how' is just speculation. Shouldn't people enjoy their god-given curiosity in pursuit of knowledge, and remain open-minded and appreciative to the unfolding universe around them?

I did try to engage in conversation recently on this topic, but I was greeted with that uneasy anxiety of people who hadn't been told what they were meant to believe yet. I found it quite sad. The idea that the words "I don't know" make you ashamed and susceptible to misteachings is I think a false conception. Indeed, it would be much more delusional to convince yourself of something you don't even know.

In my experience, the old beatitude runs true for this topic. I know a drop in the ocean regarding this universe, and I cannot even begin to appreciate it's depths, but that makes me value the small experience I have been afforded even more.

God forbid that I should be damned for admitting that I don't know instead of pretending that I do.

Regards,

Michael.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB2RgDQrHgI
The funniest thing is that the song is actually awesome.


"I see trees of green, red roses too.
I see them bloom, for me and you.
And I think to myself... what a wonderful world.

I see skies of blue, and clouds of white.
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world..." - Louis Armstrong